Ah, okay. I thought you were arguing against her ideal that the media sets poor beauty-standards. I disagree with her and think that it doesn’t, but you already know that. I take it you agree with her on that topic specifically? 

Could you expand on where it is you’re disagreeing? Because to me it sounds like you’re agreeing with her about the media.

And you’re right. The producers on the products in the magazines know they can use whatever models they want really. When someone picks up a magazine they know that its 1) huge on the internet and 2) huge nationwide. It makes these people in the magazine well-known and seemingly important for it. Most people strive to be important in some aspect. So they emulate these people in an attempt to be important. That plus the group-think ideal. 

Yeah, I try to debate with people but she must have seen my post about consenting sex and inebriation (probably why she started following me) and flooded my inbox 20 times calling me sexist and rape-supporting. When I get messages like that, I get irked and tend to disregard these people and their arguments. Such as ryking, when he bombed my personal tumblr and told me to kill myself. Her and ryking are the only people I’ve lost it on. 

I see your argument about the media pertaining to times and the women in them, but my argument against that is simple and is in question form: do you know how many guys today would have sex with Marilyn Monroe if they could? 

The answer is: probably near all of them. The media today flaunts overly-skinny girls, and while the media of Monroe’s time may have flaunted her, she is still a sexy woman for men of today’s world. I was never justifying the media of any generation for anything. I hate the media as a whole; this includes the news and sports broadcasting. 

Where I agree with feminism on the media is that some of these people who are bosses of models will make them purge to become skinnier and it’s awful. Or they will put male models on steroids or enhancers to make them more physically attractive. But that’s an industry issue, not a gender issue. Women and men strive too hard to look like them but I do not believe, at all, that the media is oppressive or suggests all women must look like that; specific people themselves decide that. And yes, they also edit their photos to make them look “beautiful” which is also very stupid. To be honest, the models of today look plastic anyway. I never understood why women would want to look like them.

So I do not blame the media for certain females to feel self-conscious. That’s a natural feeling that stems from jealousy. Sure, the media is widespread but anyone who walks outside their door and goes to stores will see all kinds of people there. Skinny, obese, short, tall, etc. What’s true is that the industry feeds off of this jealousy and self-consciousness, but I don’t believe they magnify it.

People set their own beauty-standards. But people also strive to fit in. If a group of friends has 5 girls, and 4 of the 5 girls desire skinny bodies, the 5th will feel left out and strive for that too. The media doesn’t contribute to that. The “mob mentality” does that. It’s a confidence issue of standing with one’s own views and thoughts.

fucknopatriarchy:

capitalismkills:

fucknopatriarchy:

capitalismkills:

fucknopatriarchy:

 capitalismkills reblogged your post: “Big girls need love too.” - “I know. The answer is called ‘black men’. God has a plan.”

What? What’s wrong with having preferences? Nobody said big girls cannot be beautiful, it’s just not many guys…

Typical privilege-denying spoiled white kid. You don’t have “preferences”. Your “preferences” are just reflections of the media. The media convinced you that “nothing feels as good as skinny feels”. Larger women are just as beautiful as skinny women.

Wait, who the fuck said I was white, who the fuck said I had privilege!? 

You know who else has privilege? The dumb bitch who sits behind her computer and hates on me for not preferring big women. 

And by the way, nobody says you have to be skinny, I just prefer a girl who isn’t fat. Fucking lynch me for preferring girls in a healthy weight range 

Clearly you aren’t an objective thinker. This is one of the root causes of oppression, folks. Go ahead and throw your ad-hominems around. It doesn’t make you right. The media says you have to be skinny and they portray an unrealistic and unhealthy dietary standard. Healthy weight range?? Have you seen those Playboy girls you whack off to (don’t even get me started on prostitution)? That’s unhealthy. As long as a women feels beautiful in her own skin she is *healthy*.

Who the fuck is objective then? Are you? Trick question, you’re not. No one is objective you moron. 

Yeah maybe some of those models are unhealthy but you know who buys into it wholesale? Women. A lot of women think those models are just fucking gorgeous (While I prefer a little more curves on my ladies personally) and they portray them as a standard of beauty to the rest of the female community. Women buy into it, it’s not my fault when I say I am not a fan of fat girls. 

And by the way, I don’t whack off to Playboy, we live in the internet age girl, you gotta keep with the times. 

Both extremes are unhealthy? Is it too extreme to ask for a middle? I know they exist, I see them all the time! Why is it so horrible to ask for a girl with a fairly average body? 

And by the way, there is such thing as an unhealthy body. I think that any doctor would tell you that a 400 lb lady with Type 2 diabetes and heart problems is in no way healthy. Take a trip around walmart sometime, you’ll see what I mean 

Who the fuck is objective then? Are you? Trick question, you’re not. No one is objective you moron.

Nice insult.

Yeah maybe some of those models are unhealthy but you know who buys into it wholesale? Women. A lot of women think those models are just fucking gorgeous (While I prefer a little more curves on my ladies personally) and they portray them as a standard of beauty to the rest of the female community. Women buy into it, it’s not my fault when I say I am not a fan of fat girls.

Women “buy into it”. Why are you implying that all women are mindless sheep? Women do not think they are gorgeous, they are told they are gorgeous, and have to live up to an impossible standard of beauty. Again, you aren’t “a fan of fat girls” because of the modern media. There was a time when men were absolutely in awe over Marilyn Monroe, and she was not the starved women you see in your Playboy mags today.

And by the way, I don’t whack off to Playboy, we live in the internet age girl, you gotta keep with the times.

Implying women can’t “keep up with the times” in our internet age. I am just as technologically capable as you. Women-hater.

Both extremes are unhealthy? Is it too extreme to ask for a middle? I know they exist, I see them all the time! Why is it so horrible to ask for a girl with a fairly average body?

Accept all women for who they are. Is that so hard?

“Accept all women for who they are. Is that so hard?“ 

Yes. It is. I will not accept all women for who they are. You know why? Because normal people don’t accept every male for who they are either. If someone is a jerk, they’re a jerk. If someone is ignorant, they’re ignorant. If someone is mindless ,they’re mindless. If someone is bigoted, they’re bigoted. The list goes on. i’m not going to say “Oh you’re a woman, so it’s okay”. You know who does that? Supremacists. People who believe that one gender is above the rest because they don’t need judgement. At all. Give me a break.

And regarding the body thing: Yes, there are unhealthy bodies. Male and female. Saying that a woman is healthy just because she feels like it when she’s clearly not is just as wrong as someone claiming “They’re healthy because they feel comfortable even though they have cancer that is eating away at their life”. 

Also: Marilyn Monroe is still sexy as hell. Average and a little overweight bodies are just as nice as skinny. Too skinny and it’s not attractive to me. Just as extremely overweight bodies aren’t attractive to me! 

And no one said that women were mindless and buy into the media. You said that. You claimed women are oppressed and feel bad about themselves because of the media. You effectively just said the entire female population is “held under” because they bought into it. He did as well, true, and I don’t necessarily agree with him that they “bought into it”, I think people just naturally strive to be a decent weight. It’s in our nature. We are animals; how often do you see animals in the wild morbidly obese for their species? Probably not too much. Because natural instinct leads us to that weight. We’ve lost that instinct quite a bit but not too much. Some people are obese genetically, yes, and so are some animals. But that doesn’t automatically cancel out what I’m specifically attracted to.

When a feminist claims you want to ignore rape culture and says you want to forgive all rapists, you know they are truly arrogant. To claim someone of something so evil is a tad funny. These people, man. Insanity.

razingcomplacency:

thoseboringpolitics:

razingcomplacency:

thoseboringpolitics:

razingcomplacency:

capitalismkills:

cosmicbacon:

capitalismkills:

cosmicbacon:

capitalismkills:

divinewaffles:

First of all, Cuba, I love you.

Second of all, Michael. Let me point something out: at least in the state of California, drunken sex is legally considered rape. You…

“When a person consumes alcohol, they assume responsibility for the risks they take when being inebriated.”

No, actually, the person who took advantage of someone while they were drunk assumes all responsibility. You can keep telling yourself it’s ‘plain and simple’ but seeing as people are still arguing against you and others like you about it, it probably isn’t so ‘plain and simple’. Also, you cannot give consent while drunk.

“And the fact is that with this view, anyone who regrets having sex with another person or is vindictive can turn around and claim they were drunk and claim a person as being a sex offender.”

And with your view, victims widely are apparently hateful, manipulative schemers out to ‘trap’ and do it so casually as to ‘just turn around’ and do it, despite the fact that victim blaming (you’re doing it right now by pretending as if false rape accusations happen all the time to rationalize your demonizing victims), rape apologists such as yourself are just waiting to smear them and have done it countless times before. Your generalizations are ignorant as all hell.

In reality the rate of false rape allegations is around 1-2% and at most has been about 5.9 percent, the same as for other crimes and sometimes even lower than that (https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/false-rape-allegations-are-rare/). 

“Now in one simple mishap, this person’s life is ruined. Try telling them they’re shit out of luck getting a job and good luck to them being in jail for a crime they did not commit.”

And here it is. This erasure of victims, this idea that the /accused/ is the one who has their life ruined ‘but what about his reputation?!’, not the one they raped, not the one who ‘deserved it for getting drunk’, who is victim blamed and harassed. This ignorance is astonishing, that you honestly think it’s such an open and shut case proves you know nothing of how actual rape cases have played out and continue to play out today.

Also, doesn’t everyone just /love/ the idea that assuming guilt of a person accused of rape is heinous and awful, but assuming guilt and malice in a victim by implying they’re scheming to get an innocent person locked away for ‘no good reason’ or ‘making a big deal out of nothing’ (therefore completely erasing their actual reasons and experiences) is somehow just not worth commenting on and therefore is seen as not heinous.

You’re putting words in my mouth. I never made the generalization that all victims falsely accuse a person of sexual abuse. I’m simply stating it happens and with this type of policy, it’s far more likely to happen.

Compare it to this: the death penalty. Many people support the death penalty. I don’t, but suppose I did. Murderers would be put to death. But what about the minority of those who didn’t kill anyone? What about the innocent guy who was taken away from his life and punished for a crime he did not commit? Are they forgotten?

Suppose two people are in a financial battle now because of an unwanted pregnancy or anything to do with a dispute. Someone could victimize themselves because they were drunk and manipulate the circumstances.

Obviously if someone is actually raped, then screw the reputation of the guy who did it. The fact is that even when someone is acquitted of rape, their life is over. Contributing to that social destruction isn’t too fair both ways down the road.

And excuse me, are you seriously saying I said “they deserved to get raped because they were inebriated”. Are you honestly going to pull a straw-man like that on me? That’s the equivalent of me saying “they deserved to be hit by that massive truck because they smoked marijuana!” You’re joking. You have to be. I would never ever say anything that justifies violence toward another person. Ever.

But I would also never justify policy to allow someone who was told yes to be criminalized. It’s not violence that is being used against the accused, but extortion. Extortion of a law. 

And call me a rape-apologist all you want. You’re projecting the very ignorance that I fucking loathe. That most of us here on tumblr loathe. Like I apologize to rapists for being held liable for abusing a woman. Give me a break. That type of ad-hominem makes me embarrassed to identify myself as a feminist. I prefer equalist now. Just because I believe that someone who did nothing shouldn’t be held accountable I become a sexist, rape-apologist, victim hating, ignorant man. Are you kidding me? It’s laughable. And I can absolutely directly quote those exact words that you called me in context. As if I want to smear actual victims. Give me a break.

I’m not putting any words in your mouth that were not already there said, better watch those implications junior. Also, let’s not pretend you haven’t twisted words already yourself.

“I never made the generalization that all victims falsely accuse a person of sexual abuse. I’m simply stating it happens and with this type of policy, it’s far more likely to happen.”

Just as frequently or even less frequent than every other crime that has false reports. Which is to say, low, and yet people aren’t making excuses for those. You made it sound like it happens frequently, which it doesn’t as I have already pointed out. You were generalizing, based off no actual evidence, you characterized victims the same way rape apologists do. How would you know it will ‘far more’ likely to happen? Are we on a slippery slope fallacy now? Why is ‘don’t take advantage of people who are drunk’ so hard to comprehend?

Again, all your hypotheticals depend on the idea that this ‘manipulation’ is widespread or even effective. It Is Neither. It literally would make no sense to do this given how our general society reacts to sexual assault victims in the first place (badly, and with harassment of them and protection and excuses for the accused).

“The fact is that even when someone is acquitted of rape, their life is over.”

So every director , sports athlete, politician, celebrity who was accused of rape’s life is over? Their careers came to an end due to this, all of their support systems immediately fell away and they’re all just living in a ditch now? It must be so nice to live in that complacent little bubble when you can have the ignorance to imply being accused of rape is somehow the worse thing that could happen to someone, even y’know, /actually being raped/.

And excuse me, you have said things that justify violence to another person, you have trivialized actual rape in this very response ‘oh my god getting accused is /the worst ever/, /life over/’. Despite the numerous examples that /this is not true/, and that you basically just compared the accusation as having just as much severity as the actual rape. Do you know how fucking ignorant that is? You have no right to call anyone else ignorant, you don’t know a damn thing about how the world outside your bubble even works. And if it quacks like a duck, it just might be, as long as you keep making rape apologist statements then you’re a rape apologist. You can deny it all you want, but as long as you keep engaging it, then expect to be called out on it.

“Just because I believe that someone who did nothing shouldn’t be held accountable I become a sexist, rape-apologist, victim hating, ignorant man. Are you kidding me? It’s laughable. And I can absolutely directly quote those exact words that you called me in context. As if I want to smear actual victims. Give me a break.”

‘Someone who did nothing’. Because you just know. Psychically, that they never did anything. You Just Know, and if that means painting victims as liars then that’s fine eh? The rest of this is basically just saying ‘nuh uh’, so I’m not going to bother replying. Feel free to call yourself an equalist, feminism doesn’t need fauxgressives like you around that are only interested in ignorantly running their mouths, defending rapists, and distorting facts.

Junior? You’re joking, right? Yes, add in a condescending title. That’s when you know your argument is awesome! Because I addressed you as “woman” at the end of sentences too. So it’s justified.

Wait. I didn’t. 

Anyway, to the rest of the argument (which I won’t be an ass about and say “I don’t need to address the rest because it’s stupid” or ignore parts of) I say this:Your mindset allows people to deliberately compromise their decision making ability and not accept what they say “yes” to when they did that to themselves. It’s not hard to get sober consent, but if two people are both drunk or one party doesn’t realize the other is drunk, why is that okay for that person to be considered a rapist? It’s not. 

Victimizing yourself because you got high or drunk is such incredible bull. If she was forced into it, then yeah. That’s an issue and the rapist should be taken care of accordingly. But if it’s a “wanna go back to my house?” question and the response is “yes” then there is absolutely no reason for it to be considered rape.

Also, don’t name famous, rich, and politically powerful people who had the resources to weasel their way out of situations because they’re so incredibly wealthy. Those people are evil in general. We’re talking about the average fucking person, not a politician, director, or sports player. 

Finally: I never suggested being accused of rape as being as bad as being raped. Not once. Again, don’t twist my meaning. I think they’re different kinds of negative effects on a person that follows either. It’s not comparable. I’m not apologizing to real sex offenders. Only an evil person believes that. I don’t have a bubble. I have views that I can debate with before I jump to ad-hominems. I do it all the time with economics. However, saying I sympathize with rapists is being inside your own little bubble. Self-analyze. 

Edit: Also, I’ve never advocated any violence toward a person of any sort. If such events happen, then it needs to be dealt with seriously in court. I advocate violence against NO ONE. Again, remember, I’m a libertarian. Violence intrudes on a person’s negative liberties. Also, about the “fauxgressive” insult, see the other reblog on my first post on feminist. I’m a libertarian. I never claimed to be progressive, so the insult is void.

Yes, junior. Said to the person who called women who criticize his antifeminist bullshit ‘feminazis’. I’m not here to play nice with you, so take your tone argument somewhere else.

“Victimizing yourself because you got high or drunk is such incredible bull.”

Hey, look, more victim blaming language. No one victimized themselves, the rapist does that, and you as a rape apologist do that all over again. Yay for you~. Your decision making ability is already kind of messed up when you’re drunk. I already went into the many situations you would be considered a rapist in the case of a drunk person having sex with someone who cannot properly consent, I’m not going to do it again. Your vague notion that all drunk sex just /must/ be consensual (or that ‘forcible’ rape is the only real kind) because you magically know is going nowhere.

“But if it’s a “wanna go back to my house?” question and the response is “yes” then there is absolutely no reason for it to be considered rape.”

Wow, you think /this/ is consent to sex? This? And you wonder why people think you’re a victim blamer? Going back to your house is not consent for sex. /Consent for sex is/. If the guy decides ‘well she’s barely conscious and all but she did wanna come home so I guess it’s fine to assume’. Yeah, that’s rape. Protip: Bolding things don’t make them more valid or true, junior.

And actually we’re talking about every single rapist out there. Every single bit of rape apologism, every single bit of victim blaming. You don’t get to set the criteria to your narrow-minded scope, because the real world doesn’t work that way, it’s already set. They didn’t need their money to get out of that, they had the entire fucking society backing them up and making excuses for them. You’re the one who made the generalization, that their ‘lives were over’. Got any proof? No? I got proof plenty of lives moved on like it was a speed bump. Deal With It.

You never did? ‘Their life is over’. That’s a gross and inaccurate exaggeration, one you made while conveniently leaving out the effects on actual rape victims of rape. No, no, it’s the /accusation/ and it’s effects that need to be focused on and centered according to you. Because you didn’t see it as important. I didn’t twist your meaning, it was right there. Anyone can read it if they want.

Your views are simplistic, vague, and not helpful in the least. You symphathize with rapists and their ‘ruined lives’ first and apparently everything else is second. You give lip service to how bad rape is while victim blaming. Deny, deny, deny, if you like. You engage in derailing tactics and are a hypocrite who talks about strawmen and twisting words and moving goalposts but do it yourself. 

I’m done with both of you though, you’re obviously intent on fooling yourselves. Don’t let me stop you. Night!

Use your second grade skills and read the post that you IGNORED. Go here and read. See that link? See the first boldfaced text? Whee I talk about how I disagree with the term? Jesus….

If you’re really about to the do what I just said in my last argument to you, your insane. Which was ignore many parts of my message. If both parties are drunk or one doesn’t realize the other is inebriated. Third time I said it, third time I got no response. Also, again: I’m a libertarian, the fauxgressive insult is void in case you didn’t read that either.

And yes, I consider that consent. No one should ever be blamed because someone said okay and though “Shit, made a mistake” the next morning. I’m not apologizing for rapists, but keeping in mind all those who need to be protected. This law allows too many people to be extorted. 

Again, you named politically powerful people, so I call bullshit. Politicians can get away with anything practically and so can directors and athletes. 

Also, never addressed you as anything condescending, so stop being so infantile with this “junior” bull. And don’t say I tweaked a fact, because I didn’t offer up a statistic to lie about. And neither did you. 

Your ignorance is so impressive to me. To call someone something so hateful. Again, for everyone to fucking see: I don’t agree with the term feminazi and haven’t used it. The lack of respect you had was overwhelming and at this point I’m done arguing. Your idea of rape is so warped. I dropped a pen and a guy stared down my shirt. RAPE. Everything’s rape. If both people are drunk, who’s raped? Why, EVERYBODY IS RAPED! 

I know why so many people get frustrated. I can’t stand arguing at a wall with such a narrow-minded view on everything and every man. You’re right: I apologize to rapists. I want to keep women down to the oppressive patriarchy. Totally accurate. 

Don’t bother rebogging. Or do. I don’t really care. It will be ignored either way. I’m not in the business of being trolled this hard.

razingcomplacency:

thoseboringpolitics:

razingcomplacency:

capitalismkills:

cosmicbacon:

capitalismkills:

cosmicbacon:

capitalismkills:

divinewaffles:

First of all, Cuba, I love you.

Second of all, Michael. Let me point something out: at least in the state of California, drunken sex is legally considered rape. You…

“When a person consumes alcohol, they assume responsibility for the risks they take when being inebriated.”

No, actually, the person who took advantage of someone while they were drunk assumes all responsibility. You can keep telling yourself it’s ‘plain and simple’ but seeing as people are still arguing against you and others like you about it, it probably isn’t so ‘plain and simple’. Also, you cannot give consent while drunk.

“And the fact is that with this view, anyone who regrets having sex with another person or is vindictive can turn around and claim they were drunk and claim a person as being a sex offender.”

And with your view, victims widely are apparently hateful, manipulative schemers out to ‘trap’ and do it so casually as to ‘just turn around’ and do it, despite the fact that victim blaming (you’re doing it right now by pretending as if false rape accusations happen all the time to rationalize your demonizing victims), rape apologists such as yourself are just waiting to smear them and have done it countless times before. Your generalizations are ignorant as all hell.

In reality the rate of false rape allegations is around 1-2% and at most has been about 5.9 percent, the same as for other crimes and sometimes even lower than that (https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/false-rape-allegations-are-rare/). 

“Now in one simple mishap, this person’s life is ruined. Try telling them they’re shit out of luck getting a job and good luck to them being in jail for a crime they did not commit.”

And here it is. This erasure of victims, this idea that the /accused/ is the one who has their life ruined ‘but what about his reputation?!’, not the one they raped, not the one who ‘deserved it for getting drunk’, who is victim blamed and harassed. This ignorance is astonishing, that you honestly think it’s such an open and shut case proves you know nothing of how actual rape cases have played out and continue to play out today.

Also, doesn’t everyone just /love/ the idea that assuming guilt of a person accused of rape is heinous and awful, but assuming guilt and malice in a victim by implying they’re scheming to get an innocent person locked away for ‘no good reason’ or ‘making a big deal out of nothing’ (therefore completely erasing their actual reasons and experiences) is somehow just not worth commenting on and therefore is seen as not heinous.

You’re putting words in my mouth. I never made the generalization that all victims falsely accuse a person of sexual abuse. I’m simply stating it happens and with this type of policy, it’s far more likely to happen.

Compare it to this: the death penalty. Many people support the death penalty. I don’t, but suppose I did. Murderers would be put to death. But what about the minority of those who didn’t kill anyone? What about the innocent guy who was taken away from his life and punished for a crime he did not commit? Are they forgotten?

Suppose two people are in a financial battle now because of an unwanted pregnancy or anything to do with a dispute. Someone could victimize themselves because they were drunk and manipulate the circumstances.

Obviously if someone is actually raped, then screw the reputation of the guy who did it. The fact is that even when someone is acquitted of rape, their life is over. Contributing to that social destruction isn’t too fair both ways down the road.

And excuse me, are you seriously saying I said “they deserved to get raped because they were inebriated”. Are you honestly going to pull a straw-man like that on me? That’s the equivalent of me saying “they deserved to be hit by that massive truck because they smoked marijuana!” You’re joking. You have to be. I would never ever say anything that justifies violence toward another person. Ever.

But I would also never justify policy to allow someone who was told yes to be criminalized. It’s not violence that is being used against the accused, but extortion. Extortion of a law. 

And call me a rape-apologist all you want. You’re projecting the very ignorance that I fucking loathe. That most of us here on tumblr loathe. Like I apologize to rapists for being held liable for abusing a woman. Give me a break. That type of ad-hominem makes me embarrassed to identify myself as a feminist. I prefer equalist now. Just because I believe that someone who did nothing shouldn’t be held accountable I become a sexist, rape-apologist, victim hating, ignorant man. Are you kidding me? It’s laughable. And I can absolutely directly quote those exact words that you called me in context. As if I want to smear actual victims. Give me a break.

I’m not putting any words in your mouth that were not already there said, better watch those implications junior. Also, let’s not pretend you haven’t twisted words already yourself.

“I never made the generalization that all victims falsely accuse a person of sexual abuse. I’m simply stating it happens and with this type of policy, it’s far more likely to happen.”

Just as frequently or even less frequent than every other crime that has false reports. Which is to say, low, and yet people aren’t making excuses for those. You made it sound like it happens frequently, which it doesn’t as I have already pointed out. You were generalizing, based off no actual evidence, you characterized victims the same way rape apologists do. How would you know it will ‘far more’ likely to happen? Are we on a slippery slope fallacy now? Why is ‘don’t take advantage of people who are drunk’ so hard to comprehend?

Again, all your hypotheticals depend on the idea that this ‘manipulation’ is widespread or even effective. It Is Neither. It literally would make no sense to do this given how our general society reacts to sexual assault victims in the first place (badly, and with harassment of them and protection and excuses for the accused).

“The fact is that even when someone is acquitted of rape, their life is over.”

So every director , sports athlete, politician, celebrity who was accused of rape’s life is over? Their careers came to an end due to this, all of their support systems immediately fell away and they’re all just living in a ditch now? It must be so nice to live in that complacent little bubble when you can have the ignorance to imply being accused of rape is somehow the worse thing that could happen to someone, even y’know, /actually being raped/.

And excuse me, you have said things that justify violence to another person, you have trivialized actual rape in this very response ‘oh my god getting accused is /the worst ever/, /life over/’. Despite the numerous examples that /this is not true/, and that you basically just compared the accusation as having just as much severity as the actual rape. Do you know how fucking ignorant that is? You have no right to call anyone else ignorant, you don’t know a damn thing about how the world outside your bubble even works. And if it quacks like a duck, it just might be, as long as you keep making rape apologist statements then you’re a rape apologist. You can deny it all you want, but as long as you keep engaging it, then expect to be called out on it.

“Just because I believe that someone who did nothing shouldn’t be held accountable I become a sexist, rape-apologist, victim hating, ignorant man. Are you kidding me? It’s laughable. And I can absolutely directly quote those exact words that you called me in context. As if I want to smear actual victims. Give me a break.”

‘Someone who did nothing’. Because you just know. Psychically, that they never did anything. You Just Know, and if that means painting victims as liars then that’s fine eh? The rest of this is basically just saying ‘nuh uh’, so I’m not going to bother replying. Feel free to call yourself an equalist, feminism doesn’t need fauxgressives like you around that are only interested in ignorantly running their mouths, defending rapists, and distorting facts.

Junior? You’re joking, right? Yes, add in a condescending title. That’s when you know your argument is awesome! Because I addressed you as “woman” at the end of sentences too. So it’s justified.

Wait. I didn’t. 

Anyway, to the rest of the argument (which I won’t be an ass about and say “I don’t need to address the rest because it’s stupid” or ignore parts of) I say this:Your mindset allows people to deliberately compromise their decision making ability and not accept what they say “yes” to when they did that to themselves. It’s not hard to get sober consent, but if two people are both drunk or one party doesn’t realize the other is drunk, why is that okay for that person to be considered a rapist? It’s not. 

Victimizing yourself because you got high or drunk is such incredible bull. If she was forced into it, then yeah. That’s an issue and the rapist should be taken care of accordingly. But if it’s a “wanna go back to my house?” question and the response is “yes” then there is absolutely no reason for it to be considered rape.

Also, don’t name famous, rich, and politically powerful people who had the resources to weasel their way out of situations because they’re so incredibly wealthy. Those people are evil in general. We’re talking about the average fucking person, not a politician, director, or sports player. 

Finally: I never suggested being accused of rape as being as bad as being raped. Not once. Again, don’t twist my meaning. I think they’re different kinds of negative effects on a person that follows either. It’s not comparable. I’m not apologizing to real sex offenders. Only an evil person believes that. I don’t have a bubble. I have views that I can debate with before I jump to ad-hominems. I do it all the time with economics. However, saying I sympathize with rapists is being inside your own little bubble. Self-analyze. 

Edit: Also, I’ve never advocated any violence toward a person of any sort. If such events happen, then it needs to be dealt with seriously in court. I advocate violence against NO ONE. Again, remember, I’m a libertarian. Violence intrudes on a person’s negative liberties. Also, about the “fauxgressive” insult, see the other reblog on my first post on feminist. I’m a libertarian. I never claimed to be progressive, so the insult is void.

razingcomplacency:

thoseboringpolitics:

I’ve subtly slipped in my view of feminism in posts or on webchats that people have sat in on, but I’ve never made a post for the purpose of discussing the feminist movement. So I’ll explain my view for my followers to see:

Feminism by principle is a great idea. I…

Great takedown already from slightly delusional but I have a few more comments on this. Let’s point some things out, shall we? “These people also straw-man the opposing side.” Yeah, because comparing someone to the nazis is totally not a straw man. Do you know how much you trivialize what actual nazis have done when you use the wor feminazis? Are you really so ignorant? And actually feminists ‘acquire this tag’ often from misogynists. Guess who you’re allying with?

‘Cursing you out’ doesn’t make me dogmatic. It makes me someone who curses and is angry, most likely because of something you said. Stop your tone argument, that’s a derailing tactic. So is ‘oh my goodness, you’re destroying the movement!’. You’re not entitled to anything, including a polite conversation, especially if you’re engaging in rape apologism and victim blaming. You can consider yourself a feminist all you want, theboringpolitics, but your actions speak louder than your words and your actions are painting you as a fauxgressive who doesn’t like people actually criticizing them for saying antifeminist things.

I never ever ever ever ever said I used the term feminazi myself. Read. Read. I said I noticed it was a tag they acquired. I don’t agree with the tag but I know who the tag refers to. I oppose these people generally.

Also, I haven’t done any actions. These are all words on this blog. That’s why it’s a blog. Read. You destroy your movement by claiming someone is a rape apologist. Are you out of your fucking mind? Where the heck do you get off to call me something so evil? Honestly? Where’s my incentive to apologize to a rapist? That’s insane, and makes me lightheaded with rage to be called that and referred to as a rape apologist. 

I’m absolutely entitled to a polite conversation. I remained quite civil with you, and you likewise to me, for a little in our posts back and forth. But when I’m called a rape apologist and a “victim smearer” I lose it. Honestly. It destroys the idea of feminism to call someone those things and claim that as their viewpoint (which is a straw-man) because I disagree with a law that’s in place. I’m not an antifeminist, I’m an equalist.

Also, big newsflash. I’m a libertarian. Therefor, not a progressive. I believe in domestic progressivism that can be done without reform using law. Such as gay marriage; I don’t want government recognizing any marriages legally and I don’t want them giving marriage certificates to heterosexual or homosexual couples. I know that homosexuals will still be able to marry through firms or churches much easier than with these regulations on marriage. So don’t call me a fauxgressive. Because you’d be wrong. It’s as if I were to call you a fauxmmunist. You’re not a communist in the first place nor claim to be one, so it’s kind of a void insult.

razingcomplacency:

thoseboringpolitics:

razingcomplacency:

christiankeyes:

thoseboringpolitics:

razingcomplacency:

capitalismkills:

cosmicbacon:

capitalismkills:

cosmicbacon:

capitalismkills:

divinewaffles:

First of all, Cuba, I love you.

Second of all, Michael. Let me point something out: at least in the state of California, drunken sex is legally considered rape. You…

“When a person consumes alcohol, they assume responsibility for the risks they take when being inebriated.”

No, actually, the person who took advantage of someone while they were drunk assumes all responsibility. You can keep telling yourself it’s ‘plain and simple’ but seeing as people are still arguing against you and others like you about it, it probably isn’t so ‘plain and simple’. Also, you cannot give consent while drunk.

“And the fact is that with this view, anyone who regrets having sex with another person or is vindictive can turn around and claim they were drunk and claim a person as being a sex offender.”

And with your view, victims widely are apparently hateful, manipulative schemers out to ‘trap’ and do it so casually as to ‘just turn around’ and do it, despite the fact that victim blaming (you’re doing it right now by pretending as if false rape accusations happen all the time to rationalize your demonizing victims), rape apologists such as yourself are just waiting to smear them and have done it countless times before. Your generalizations are ignorant as all hell.

In reality the rate of false rape allegations is around 1-2% and at most has been about 5.9 percent, the same as for other crimes and sometimes even lower than that (https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/false-rape-allegations-are-rare/). 

“Now in one simple mishap, this person’s life is ruined. Try telling them they’re shit out of luck getting a job and good luck to them being in jail for a crime they did not commit.”

And here it is. This erasure of victims, this idea that the /accused/ is the one who has their life ruined ‘but what about his reputation?!’, not the one they raped, not the one who ‘deserved it for getting drunk’, who is victim blamed and harassed. This ignorance is astonishing, that you honestly think it’s such an open and shut case proves you know nothing of how actual rape cases have played out and continue to play out today.

Also, doesn’t everyone just /love/ the idea that assuming guilt of a person accused of rape is heinous and awful, but assuming guilt and malice in a victim by implying they’re scheming to get an innocent person locked away for ‘no good reason’ or ‘making a big deal out of nothing’ (therefore completely erasing their actual reasons and experiences) is somehow just not worth commenting on and therefore is seen as not heinous.

You’re putting words in my mouth. I never made the generalization that all victims falsely accuse a person of sexual abuse. I’m simply stating it happens and with this type of policy, it’s far more likely to happen.

Compare it to this: the death penalty. Many people support the death penalty. I don’t, but suppose I did. Murderers would be put to death. But what about the minority of those who didn’t kill anyone? What about the innocent guy who was taken away from his life and punished for a crime he did not commit? Are they forgotten?

Suppose two people are in a financial battle now because of an unwanted pregnancy or anything to do with a dispute. Someone could victimize themselves because they were drunk and manipulate the circumstances.

Obviously if someone is actually raped, then screw the reputation of the guy who did it. The fact is that even when someone is acquitted of rape, their life is over. Contributing to that social destruction isn’t too fair both ways down the road.

And excuse me, are you seriously saying I said “they deserved to get raped because they were inebriated”. Are you honestly going to pull a straw-man like that on me? That’s the equivalent of me saying “they deserved to be hit by that massive truck because they smoked marijuana!” You’re joking. You have to be. I would never ever say anything that justifies violence toward another person. Ever.

But I would also never justify policy to allow someone who was told yes to be criminalized. It’s not violence that is being used against the accused, but extortion. Extortion of a law. 

And call me a rape-apologist all you want. You’re projecting the very ignorance that I fucking loathe. That most of us here on tumblr loathe. Like I apologize to rapists for being held liable for abusing a woman. Give me a break. That type of ad-hominem makes me embarrassed to identify myself as a feminist. I prefer equalist now. Just because I believe that someone who did nothing shouldn’t be held accountable I become a sexist, rape-apologist, victim hating, ignorant man. Are you kidding me? It’s laughable. And I can absolutely directly quote those exact words that you called me in context. As if I want to smear actual victims. Give me a break.

Let’s get down to the root cause of the disagreement here:

One side believes that when you willingly and knowingly consume alcohol, and become drunk, you are responsible for all decisions you make while drunk. A fellow blogger, capitalismkills, made an excellent comparison: If you drive a car while drunk, you are charged for driving under the influence. You are responsible for the decisions of getting in the car, putting and turning the key in the ignition, and slamming your irresponsible foot on the gas pedal.

The other side here believes that a drunken person is not able to give consent. Simple as that.

No one deserves to be raped. No one - except rapists - think that. And if you’re calling us all rapists you’ve got another thing coming. Taking advantage of people while they are drunk IS COMPLETELY DOUCHE - but is not rape. And your statistic of “false rape allegations” are those proven, in court, to be false.

No one is fucking apologising for rapists. We are all in favour of establishing the fairest laws.

And yeah. I would say that the accussed are not always guilty. That’s why they are called the fucking accussed.

We want justice against people that are rapists - not people falsely accused of being rapists. Having sex with a drunk woman isn’t rape in 98% of the country so why am I even bothering with you?

“One side believes that when you willingly and knowingly consume alcohol, and become drunk, you are responsible for all decisions you make while drunk”

Do you not see how ridiculously simplistic this is? Do you not see how this has always led into ‘well she /decided/ to get drunk at that bar, what did she expect’. Do you not see how this leads to reinforcing and fueling victim blaming and rape apologism?

“No one deserves to be raped. No one - except rapists - think that. And if you’re calling us all rapists you’ve got another thing coming. Taking advantage of people while they are drunk IS COMPLETELY DOUCHE - but is not rape.”

Well first of all, um, ‘the courts said your statistics aren’t true’ isn’t really anything substantial. Second of all, thanks for the straw man but I never called you a rapist, but a rape apologist and victim blamer doesn’t have to be a rapist to enable and make excuses /for/ rapists, to fuel on rape culture. Like you just did. Taking advantage of someone while they are drunk /is rape/. Do you not know what ‘taking advantage of someone’ even means? Holy shit, how can you deny being a rape apologist when you literally just said this? What the hell do you even think rape is?

“Do you not see how ridiculously simplistic this is? Do you not see how this has always led into ‘well she /decided/ to get drunk at that bar, what did she expect’. Do you not see how this leads to reinforcing and fueling victim blaming and rape apologism?”

No. I’m simply saying if you make a decision you didn’t like while you were drunk it’s your fault for getting drunk. What if I got drunk and went into a bar and agreed to fight someone? What if I then got my ass kicked? I shouldn’t be able to say “he took advantage of me being drunk and kicked my ass”. I agreed to fight; that was my decision and I should accept responsibility to agreeing to something. If someone doesn’t want to make stupid decisions, then the best advice is this: Don’t. Get. Drunk.

I’m not at all blaming the victim of rape. You have a truly legitimate problem if someone persists and harasses a drunk woman. Forcing something is rape. But it’s not rape if they say yes. I mean, what if the man isn’t even aware that she’s inebriated? Some people are that dense and yes, some people are that good at disguising being drunk. I know a few; it’s actually quite impressive. 

“Well first of all, um, ‘the courts said your statistics aren’t true’ isn’t really anything substantial. Second of all, thanks for the straw man but I never called you a rapist, but a rape apologist and victim blamer doesn’t have to be a rapist to enable and make excuses /for/ rapists, to fuel on rape culture. Like you just did. Taking advantage of someone while they are drunk /is rape/. Do you not know what ‘taking advantage of someone’ even means? Holy shit, how can you deny being a rape apologist when you literally just said this? What the hell do you even think rape is?”

Yeah, I don’t agree with the argument “the courts said this”. And I never said you called me a rapist, he said that. I’ll leave that be. But for me to be called a rape-apologist insults me personally as well as my moral system. Only an evil-intentioned and cruel person would sympathize with rapists: real offenders. 

It seems where we differ is this: what taking advantage of a person is. To me, that’s using coercion to get something someone wants. Such as sex. I think taking personal responsibility for actions is key in this. I don’t want my view to be compared to “she wore that tight skirt, what did she expect?!” I think if a woman wears revealing clothes she’s more likely to be hit on and flirted with, and what can she expect? But to say that about rape is intense. And to say I agree with that is an intense allegation. It’s offensive to me and honestly hurts your point. 

It gives off a dogma. I don’t sympathize with rapists. At all. But I don’t think it’s fair to place responsibility on a person who was part of a mutual action because someone woke up and though “I really shouldn’t have done that and, had I been sober, wouldn’t have wanted to.” If someone puts a harmful substance in their body and they give consent to something, they should accept that they said yes and it was perhaps stupid of them to compromise their state of mind.

Obviously that’s all void if force was used. But in the case of consent, that personal responsibility should be present.

“If someone doesn’t want to make stupid decisions, then the best advice is this: Don’t. Get. Drunk.”

If someone is so scared of getting accused of rape for ‘having sex’ with a drunk person, don’t ‘have sex’ with a drunk person. Wait. Until. They. Are. Sober. Get it? Probably not but I guess I’m just an optimist hoping you’ll finally get this concept.

“But it’s not rape if they say yes.” - In which way are they saying ‘yes’? To you, what do you think means ‘yes’? What’s the question? Why are you asking while they’re drunk? Why not just do it when they’re sober? If you’re not sure, or ‘aware’, don’t do anything. Sorry, you just might have to be responsible for your actions on this one.

“I think if a woman wears revealing clothes she’s more likely to be hit on and flirted with, and what can she expect?” She can expect to be treated like a human being, not public property there to be objectified. Sexual harassment isn’t okay either, her ‘revealing clothes’ don’t force you to do anything.

And to everything afterward I will simply ask ‘What is so hard about getting affirmative consent of someone with a clear mind?’

There. Your last point. It’s not. Not at all. But if two people are drunk then why should a person be accused of rape? And what if, again, they’re not aware the other person is even inebriated? I asked the same question in my last post. 

Yes, I agree with you. She deserves to be treated as a human being. However, the world is the way it is. Being hit-on happens. So does flirting. Being harassed is something separate. If she tells the guy to go away but he continues, then, again, you have a very serious issue.

And to the first point: night-life is night-life. They shouldn’t have to be afraid of being accused of rape after hearing the answer “yes” to the question “Do you want to get out of here?” To me, what means “yes” is the oral answer of “yes”.

“If you’re not sure, or ‘aware’, don’t do anything.”

Then how about say that to a drunk person who is not aware of what they’re doing. Don’t do anything. Having sex with someone who compromised themselves deliberately shouldn’t be an offense. If you want to deliberately compromise yourself without the possibility of agreeing to sex, then stay at home and do it or have people over and do it. 

It’s not an intrusion on anyone’s individual liberties to have sex with someone who said yes. And that’s what is most important to me: negative/personal liberties. 

razingcomplacency:

christiankeyes:

thoseboringpolitics:

razingcomplacency:

capitalismkills:

cosmicbacon:

capitalismkills:

cosmicbacon:

capitalismkills:

divinewaffles:

First of all, Cuba, I love you.

Second of all, Michael. Let me point something out: at least in the state of California, drunken sex is legally considered rape. You…

“When a person consumes alcohol, they assume responsibility for the risks they take when being inebriated.”

No, actually, the person who took advantage of someone while they were drunk assumes all responsibility. You can keep telling yourself it’s ‘plain and simple’ but seeing as people are still arguing against you and others like you about it, it probably isn’t so ‘plain and simple’. Also, you cannot give consent while drunk.

“And the fact is that with this view, anyone who regrets having sex with another person or is vindictive can turn around and claim they were drunk and claim a person as being a sex offender.”

And with your view, victims widely are apparently hateful, manipulative schemers out to ‘trap’ and do it so casually as to ‘just turn around’ and do it, despite the fact that victim blaming (you’re doing it right now by pretending as if false rape accusations happen all the time to rationalize your demonizing victims), rape apologists such as yourself are just waiting to smear them and have done it countless times before. Your generalizations are ignorant as all hell.

In reality the rate of false rape allegations is around 1-2% and at most has been about 5.9 percent, the same as for other crimes and sometimes even lower than that (https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/false-rape-allegations-are-rare/). 

“Now in one simple mishap, this person’s life is ruined. Try telling them they’re shit out of luck getting a job and good luck to them being in jail for a crime they did not commit.”

And here it is. This erasure of victims, this idea that the /accused/ is the one who has their life ruined ‘but what about his reputation?!’, not the one they raped, not the one who ‘deserved it for getting drunk’, who is victim blamed and harassed. This ignorance is astonishing, that you honestly think it’s such an open and shut case proves you know nothing of how actual rape cases have played out and continue to play out today.

Also, doesn’t everyone just /love/ the idea that assuming guilt of a person accused of rape is heinous and awful, but assuming guilt and malice in a victim by implying they’re scheming to get an innocent person locked away for ‘no good reason’ or ‘making a big deal out of nothing’ (therefore completely erasing their actual reasons and experiences) is somehow just not worth commenting on and therefore is seen as not heinous.

You’re putting words in my mouth. I never made the generalization that all victims falsely accuse a person of sexual abuse. I’m simply stating it happens and with this type of policy, it’s far more likely to happen.

Compare it to this: the death penalty. Many people support the death penalty. I don’t, but suppose I did. Murderers would be put to death. But what about the minority of those who didn’t kill anyone? What about the innocent guy who was taken away from his life and punished for a crime he did not commit? Are they forgotten?

Suppose two people are in a financial battle now because of an unwanted pregnancy or anything to do with a dispute. Someone could victimize themselves because they were drunk and manipulate the circumstances.

Obviously if someone is actually raped, then screw the reputation of the guy who did it. The fact is that even when someone is acquitted of rape, their life is over. Contributing to that social destruction isn’t too fair both ways down the road.

And excuse me, are you seriously saying I said “they deserved to get raped because they were inebriated”. Are you honestly going to pull a straw-man like that on me? That’s the equivalent of me saying “they deserved to be hit by that massive truck because they smoked marijuana!” You’re joking. You have to be. I would never ever say anything that justifies violence toward another person. Ever.

But I would also never justify policy to allow someone who was told yes to be criminalized. It’s not violence that is being used against the accused, but extortion. Extortion of a law. 

And call me a rape-apologist all you want. You’re projecting the very ignorance that I fucking loathe. That most of us here on tumblr loathe. Like I apologize to rapists for being held liable for abusing a woman. Give me a break. That type of ad-hominem makes me embarrassed to identify myself as a feminist. I prefer equalist now. Just because I believe that someone who did nothing shouldn’t be held accountable I become a sexist, rape-apologist, victim hating, ignorant man. Are you kidding me? It’s laughable. And I can absolutely directly quote those exact words that you called me in context. As if I want to smear actual victims. Give me a break.

Let’s get down to the root cause of the disagreement here:

One side believes that when you willingly and knowingly consume alcohol, and become drunk, you are responsible for all decisions you make while drunk. A fellow blogger, capitalismkills, made an excellent comparison: If you drive a car while drunk, you are charged for driving under the influence. You are responsible for the decisions of getting in the car, putting and turning the key in the ignition, and slamming your irresponsible foot on the gas pedal.

The other side here believes that a drunken person is not able to give consent. Simple as that.

No one deserves to be raped. No one - except rapists - think that. And if you’re calling us all rapists you’ve got another thing coming. Taking advantage of people while they are drunk IS COMPLETELY DOUCHE - but is not rape. And your statistic of “false rape allegations” are those proven, in court, to be false.

No one is fucking apologising for rapists. We are all in favour of establishing the fairest laws.

And yeah. I would say that the accussed are not always guilty. That’s why they are called the fucking accussed.

We want justice against people that are rapists - not people falsely accused of being rapists. Having sex with a drunk woman isn’t rape in 98% of the country so why am I even bothering with you?

“One side believes that when you willingly and knowingly consume alcohol, and become drunk, you are responsible for all decisions you make while drunk”

Do you not see how ridiculously simplistic this is? Do you not see how this has always led into ‘well she /decided/ to get drunk at that bar, what did she expect’. Do you not see how this leads to reinforcing and fueling victim blaming and rape apologism?

“No one deserves to be raped. No one - except rapists - think that. And if you’re calling us all rapists you’ve got another thing coming. Taking advantage of people while they are drunk IS COMPLETELY DOUCHE - but is not rape.”

Well first of all, um, ‘the courts said your statistics aren’t true’ isn’t really anything substantial. Second of all, thanks for the straw man but I never called you a rapist, but a rape apologist and victim blamer doesn’t have to be a rapist to enable and make excuses /for/ rapists, to fuel on rape culture. Like you just did. Taking advantage of someone while they are drunk /is rape/. Do you not know what ‘taking advantage of someone’ even means? Holy shit, how can you deny being a rape apologist when you literally just said this? What the hell do you even think rape is?

“Do you not see how ridiculously simplistic this is? Do you not see how this has always led into ‘well she /decided/ to get drunk at that bar, what did she expect’. Do you not see how this leads to reinforcing and fueling victim blaming and rape apologism?”

No. I’m simply saying if you make a decision you didn’t like while you were drunk it’s your fault for getting drunk. What if I got drunk and went into a bar and agreed to fight someone? What if I then got my ass kicked? I shouldn’t be able to say “he took advantage of me being drunk and kicked my ass”. I agreed to fight; that was my decision and I should accept responsibility to agreeing to something. If someone doesn’t want to make stupid decisions, then the best advice is this: Don’t. Get. Drunk.

I’m not at all blaming the victim of rape. You have a truly legitimate problem if someone persists and harasses a drunk woman. Forcing something is rape. But it’s not rape if they say yes. I mean, what if the man isn’t even aware that she’s inebriated? Some people are that dense and yes, some people are that good at disguising being drunk. I know a few; it’s actually quite impressive. 

“Well first of all, um, ‘the courts said your statistics aren’t true’ isn’t really anything substantial. Second of all, thanks for the straw man but I never called you a rapist, but a rape apologist and victim blamer doesn’t have to be a rapist to enable and make excuses /for/ rapists, to fuel on rape culture. Like you just did. Taking advantage of someone while they are drunk /is rape/. Do you not know what ‘taking advantage of someone’ even means? Holy shit, how can you deny being a rape apologist when you literally just said this? What the hell do you even think rape is?”

Yeah, I don’t agree with the argument “the courts said this”. And I never said you called me a rapist, he said that. I’ll leave that be. But for me to be called a rape-apologist insults me personally as well as my moral system. Only an evil-intentioned and cruel person would sympathize with rapists: real offenders. 

It seems where we differ is this: what taking advantage of a person is. To me, that’s using coercion to get something someone wants. Such as sex. I think taking personal responsibility for actions is key in this. I don’t want my view to be compared to “she wore that tight skirt, what did she expect?!” I think if a woman wears revealing clothes she’s more likely to be hit on and flirted with, and what can she expect? But to say that about rape is intense. And to say I agree with that is an intense allegation. It’s offensive to me and honestly hurts your point. 

It gives off a dogma. I don’t sympathize with rapists. At all. But I don’t think it’s fair to place responsibility on a person who was part of a mutual action because someone woke up and though “I really shouldn’t have done that and, had I been sober, wouldn’t have wanted to.” If someone puts a harmful substance in their body and they give consent to something, they should accept that they said yes and it was perhaps stupid of them to compromise their state of mind.

Obviously that’s all void if force was used. But in the case of consent, that personal responsibility should be present.